Episode 80: How to Negotiate Equal (or Better) Pay with Angela Bishop Ross

Acquania Escarne 0:03

You are listening to The Purpose of Money Podcast, a podcast where we talk about ways to build wealth and create more freedom in your life today. I am your host Acquania Escarne.

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Black women are paid 58 cents for every dollar paid to white men. In this episode, I'm talking with Angela Bishop Ross about how to close the wage gap and get paid what you deserve. Angela Bishop Ross is a Lupus warrior business money and life coach and president of a small tax firm in Oakland, California. She loves helping women to find clarity and confidence, build and organize their small business, own their money and reach financial freedom and get their life all the way together. Without further ado, I love to welcome Angela to the show. Hey, Angela, welcome to The Purpose of Money. How are you?

Angela Bishop Ross 1:39

I am wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. So much.

Acquania Escarne 1:44

Yes, this is gonna be a good conversation because it is Black Women Equal Pay Day. And this is a very important thing to remember because what it signifies is how long it actually takes black women to work to get the same amount of money as non Hispanic white men, which is well beyond what it takes them to do in a year. So we're already in September. And it's sad that we have to wait this long to get equal pay. But before we happen to that conversation, I want to learn a little bit more about you. So hopefully, you'll remember this. What did you want to be when you were a kid? And did you always want to be an entrepreneur?

Angela Bishop Ross 2:34

Oh, okay. So I wanted to be a doctor. And I think, you know, most young kids grow up saying things like that, but I really did. I was I was into the blood and the guts, you know, I was never afraid, you know, we find a bird or a frog or a tadpole, I had no problem getting in and actually got into medical school, did a summer bridge program. And almost immediately knew that wasn't for me, I just and I and to this day, I still cannot tell you what it was exactly. But I just knew on a cellular level, that it wasn't what I really wanted to do. But I at the time was a conformer you know, I was a type A, you know, people pleaser, and had a mother have a mother at the time who was you know, very much into image. And so I just continued on but got enough guts to say okay, yeah, I want to do this. So did not go to medical school. But finish my college degrees. I do have multiple degrees only because again, the conformer you know, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I didn't have the guts, nor did I even know that I could change my mind. So I just kept going. And for a while I was embarrassed that I have that many degrees. But you know, because it signified that I didn't know, you know, I didn't have the agency, you know, over my decisions, or at least I felt that way. I grew up with well, I didn't really grow up with parents that were self-employed, but I grew up around people who were self-employed. Both my parents became selfpart-time-employed. When I was in middle school. My mother became a real estate broker. My father left Standard Oil, he was the first black executive black VP at Standard Oil. However, they still retired him early. So in essence, he got caught up in layoffs and out of necessity, decided to start his own accounting firm. Well, it began as a bookkeeping company, and it was supposed to be part-time till we found something but you discovered that that was his thing. And I was in middle school at the time. And so all of his friends were self-employed. They all had they were all insurance agents, CPA firms, doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs. And so I was already familiar with that. But in my mind, entrepreneurship equaled instability, and uncertainty. And this December Capricorn who likes, you know, process I like, what's the word? Routine. And, you know, it meant, you know, it was uncomfortable. And, you know, there were times when we were high on the hog, and, you know, bawling, and then there were times when we weren't, and I couldn't take that, it affected me, it affected my relationship with money. So I was like, I'm gonna go get my, my paper my degrees, and get out there in the corporate world, climb that corporate ladder, and start bawling, which I did. I had some amazing jobs, I, well, let me back up. Because this is important. I, somehow, well, really, through peer pressure, got into psychology and decided that I was going to be a clinical therapist, and I was for a few years. However, my clinical manager recognized that this was not for me, I am a problem solver. So the whole idea of sitting there listening to somebody, you know, talk about their problems, and I just had to listen, I couldn't jump in and fix it. You know, I want to say I'm like, Well, what will? So let's put a plan together, what are we doing? Step one, you know, and so it wasn't working. So she was like it, you need to go find something else to do. So I immediately got into human resources. And this is back when and I'm telling, given my age. This was back in the early 90s, when it was still called the personnel department and there weren't a lot of African American women in particular, in HR, you couldn't get a degree in HR. HR was maybe a semester course in a graduate program. So that's how it was back then. And so I got into it, and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. And I've been in just about every HR discipline, except benefits. Because I had a taste of it. He was like, Yeah. Except benefits, I did get into compensation. I'm a numbers person. So once I began to understand, as I rose, the corporate HR ladder, I began to understand the politics of compensation, and, and the role that it plays within the corporate structure.

Acquania Escarne 7:55

I like that, so let's hold on, hold on, I want you to hold on just a minute, because I'm gonna dive into that compensation part because I knew you were the Queen to talk about it. So let's hold off on the compensation chat. But I love where you're going with this because one, it sounds like you're a trailblazer. You got into the industry when there weren't a lot of us, and you rocked it, you went to different parts, and you you tried different things to really find your niche, but then also to be more helpful to what is now your coaching clients I'm sure, right? But I did want to kind of go back to one thing you were saying about being a child of entrepreneurs, because that's similar to my story. My parents were divorced when I was a kid, but my dad ended up staying in the military and retiring from the military. But my mom was a full-time entrepreneur, most of my childhood and I experienced the same things where there was a ups and downs when it came to finances. And my mom was also accounting background, she had a degree in accounting, and she would do that for small businesses, but then also sold ATM machines, sold life insurance she just had. Yeah, like, no work for the IRS during tax season, you know, different things like that. But I still feel like that experience probably shaped the entrepreneur you are today. Because for me, it showed me that entrepreneurship is hard. But it didn't discourage me from entrepreneurship. It just gave me some things that I knew I wanted to do differently. Once I had my own business, right? And so one major thing, for example, is my mom only hired me. She never hired people to help her with her business. She didn't really try to scale her business. And she worked really hard and she had the grit, but she never had the six-figure incomes that she really could have had had she scaled and leverage outsourcing. So one of the things I did when I realized how my business was growing as I was like, oh, I need to hire contractors, I need to outsource the work I don't want to do, I need to figure out scaling and hiring a coach. I don't know if my mom ever really had a coach. So like, I always liked to talk to other women who were raised by entrepreneurs around entrepreneurs, to get that side of the story, because even if it wasn't the best experience it still influence who you are today.

Angela Bishop Ross 10:29

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there's always, you know, the dark side of entrepreneurship, right? And there's, you know, just like, there's the dark side to anything. But there are so many positives to entrepreneurship, even with the struggles and like you said, it absolutely shaped me in ways that I didn't even realize until I actually fully fully stepped into entrepreneurship. It shaped how I it shaped the corporate animal that I was, for sure, you know, it shaped influenced my drive to climb the ladder. You know, and at that time, it was more about like, what you said what I didn't want. And, you know, my dad, he is a character. So if you can imagine, Fred Sanford, Dr. Heathcliff Huxtable, George Jefferson, and Bernie Mac. That is my 80 year old dad. So there's always some tomfoolery and shenanigans going on in the office. But but he's always dropped in pearls, and I grew up hearing all the time. It's okay to not know what you want, but you damn well better know what you don't want. And I typically operated from that place. Not realizing that I could lead with, you know, discovering what I wanted. So to tie that into entrepreneurship. I was so busy running from it, that I didn't realize that that intrinsically is who I am. And it took my husband really saying, stop playing, stop playing, come on now. Like, stop. And, you know, and with his support, and encouragement, and really a serious shove. You know, I got out there and started doing HR consulting on my own. Because I was already entrepreneurial within the context of corporate, which is why I did so well. And, and I was constantly told that by my bosses, you know, you're so entrepreneurial, you're always looking for, you know, you know, the solution and the fix and that this and that. And so, anyway, so, by the time I, you know, start, you know, hung my shingle and started growing the consulting piece, you know, my father's firm, needed help, and he needed my kind of help. And so I joined and started working and similar to your mom, you know, he never really wanted to scale. You know, he's, he's scaled out of necessity, but, but kept a tight rein, you know, he made it clear, I don't want any more than, you know, five employees, and I don't want you know, like, I'm not a manager, I don't manage people, that's, that's not me, which is how I got into the family business. He was like, I got too many people, and I don't want to be bothered with them. And I need you to come in and, and, and manage them. Right? So that's what that's how I got into it. And, you know, you know, my finance background is because I didn't work in finance from an operations from an HR standpoint, but I've always been a numbers person. You know, I've always worked in my dad's office, you know, I'm an accountant by default. But that's not my passion. I didn't go to school for that. But I know enough to be dirty. I'm sorry. I know enough to be dangerous. And also something that my father has always taught me and that I've learned over the years helping other small businesses is that it's critically important to understand every area of your business. But anyway, so so once I you know, joined the firm, like you I bill started popping off you know, I need to do this different, I need to do that differently. I need to, you know, we need to change this around. And a big part of what I become as a consultant is that I'm paid to look for what doesn't work. And fix it.

Acquania Escarne 15:17

I like that. I like that.

Angela Bishop Ross 15:21

So hopefully, I know I kind of went the long way around, but.

Acquania Escarne 15:27

You're fine, you're fine. I feel like. I know, you just, you just have to really tell the story how it is. And I think people need to understand it's okay, to have that path, going to school, getting the degrees, figuring out where you want to be, once you get into the family business, how to make it better. I think a lot of us resist what our parents are doing, because we just want to have our own path, right. And we think that we're meant to be distinguished and separated. And, you know, I don't want to get into that. But then your dad showed you the value you could add to his business, even if you're not an accountant, you know, if you don't want to crunch the numbers. So I really do like that story. And I appreciate you sharing it. But let's happen to this conversation, because I know that's what you want to talk about. So on Equal Pay Day, which fell on March 15th this year, President Biden said, I'm continuing to work with Congress to pass critical legislation that would lower the cost of child care, elder care, home-based healthcare and other major barriers to working families while raising compensation for care workers, who are disproportionately women of color, and who have been underpaid and undervalued for far too long. So my question to you is, what do you think about the fact that Equal Pay Day for black women shifted from August 3rd in 2021 to September 21st in 2022?

Angela Bishop Ross 16:59

Well, honestly, it says a lot. It says what we already know, really, you know, where we stand, you know, our value, right? Or lack thereof, really. And, you know, honestly, that's what it says to me. You know, I can elaborate more if you like, but to cut straight to the chase. That's what it is.

Acquania Escarne 17:30

Be frank and honest. And I think you're right. And I think that it's sad because for, I've always made an mission to do an episode on equal pay day for black women, specifically, because my audience is black women, and women of color. And for several years, we've been able to do it in August. And when I learned that the date shifted by over a month, I was shocked. I was like, what is going on? And it's hard enough to admit inflation, rising prices, people are losing their jobs. Some of them are trans-changing jobs and may not be getting same compensation in the process. We're already struggling on so many fronts. And now we're expected to build wealth, making less and dealing with the rising prices. In fact, statistics show that women earn an estimated $400,700 less than men over a 40 year career. So $400,000 is huge. And then it's a lifetime. Do you know how much wealth we could be building? And the reason? You know,

Angela Bishop Ross 18:48

I think about the interest that that the earning I know the compounded interest, I think about the investments that could be made with that money, I think about how many kids could get put to school with that money. You know, so girls don't get

Acquania Escarne 19:03

Food, houses. Because think about it. That actually is the reason why I started The Purpose of Money. So 2018, I started thepurposeofmoney.com as a platform to teach women how to build wealth, because so many women are single mothers or heads of household trying to build wealth and making less. It's a fact. They're making less than male colleagues. But they're like, I'm still trying to buy the house. I'm still trying to take care of my aging parents. I'm still trying to provide a college education for my children. And oh, by the way, my white colleague right next to me, who does the same job makes more than me. What do I do in this situation? So I want to ask you, when it comes to salary negotiation, rumor has it I think you taught me this, that women don't ask for more or they don't negotiate their salaries. Why do you think that is?

Angela Bishop Ross 19:59

Well, Let me let me clarify a little bit. You know, quite frankly, the, you know, the, the belief is that women in general don't. My experience and again, I've been in the HR game, recruiting for a while recruiting and staffing for a while succession planning, which deals with, you know, compensation. This is all in that, you know. Yes, women in general, but specifically black women, I, you know, more often than not white women had no problem saying, hey, you know, come up, come up off that paper a little bit more white women and Asian women in but you know, that's been my experience, not just in the bay, I've worked, you know, all over the country. But what is consistent is Black women not asking for more. Being okay with whatever was offered. And actually, I've had several experiences situations where they've actually said, Well, you know, I don't need to have that much. I don't need to. Beloved? That's no, no, no, that's not what we're doing. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've had to fight for, you know, fight on behalf of black women employees, black women, candidates who were more qualified, right? And there's one situation in particular, I can think of where she's, at that time she was being hired as in house counsel for a tech company. And I've worked at several different tech companies. And actually, I've had two situations where I was hiring in house counsel. But this particular case, or situation, she was more than qualified. She was the only black woman, I sought her out, I sought out a black woman to be in the candidate pool. And lo and behold, she was the most qualified, she had the most experience and the nature of this particular tech company, it was critical to have a particular type of legal experience. And she was the only one that had it. They were reluctant to hire her. I twisted their arm. So they did they decided they were going to offer her the job. However, they were going to offer her $15,000 less than the bottom range. And the justification was that that 15,000 would be a 90-day incentive. And I'm like, yeah, no. So I had to, you know, because I get my colleagues. No, I don't have a problem saying something at all. So I did. And this was

Acquania Escarne 23:26

Hold on, can I ask a question? Because I want to make sure I understand that. So in the job announcement that she replied to, there was a base salary, I'm just going to throw out numbers of $100,000, right? And they said to you don't offer her 100,000 offer her 85. And then if she stays on for 90 days, then offer her a 15k raise? Is Is that what you mean by below the Okay, so how does that make sense? I mean, she's an educated woman who applied to a job for a salary that she was expecting at a minimum $100,000 or whatever the base was, and you want to offer her the job? She has the most experienced she has a specialized experience. And then you want to pretend that you give her a bonus. That math a math it, I don't.

Angela Bishop Ross 24:21

Let me tell you, let me tell you this. I should write a book.

Acquania Escarne 24:26

That math a math and I'm sorry. I'd be like, that's not the that's not even a minimum salary. And

Angela Bishop Ross 24:34

W e'll just know that that we didn't do that.

Acquania Escarne 24:37

Okay, thank you. So you are the advocate that was like, yes, yeah, don't think about that.

Angela Bishop Ross 24:43

That's exactly, exactly and and you know, I I have been in some pretty rarefied air in my career, and that meant typically that I was the only the only one right the only one and over Room. And for them, I was the exception, right? We are different. So I was privy to a lot of conversations and comments that, you know. Yeah. So there were always these conversations. And oftentimes, they would want me to use my black card, you know, to, you know, you know,

Acquania Escarne 25:25

Give someone to accept $15,000.

Angela Bishop Ross 25:28

Right, so, so anyway, so to circle back, you know, yes, oftentimes, more often than not actually, you know, although I feel like it's, it's definitely changed in the last five years, for sure. There's much more information out there, you know, the internet, or the imminence, as my dad says, has absolutely. Or is doing phenomenal in leveling the playing field. But but, you know, we, we, collectively, black women, the black community, aren't as nimble. And so we don't, you know, adjust as quickly as we should, more often than not, which is, which also plays a role in why we're, we're behind often. But But yes, so many times, you know, I would have to say, you know, Sis, you should ask your final number. Sis, you sure you don't want to bump that up? A few bands? You know? Yeah. Oftentimes, I would be having conversations, as I'm writing, and doing things like this, you know, or doing things like this.

Acquania Escarne 27:00

So, I just because you don't get a bonus, it's not like when you save? Well, maybe you do, maybe you can explain it from your side of the business. Is there any bonus for hiring people for less than a budget?

Angela Bishop Ross 27:15

No, me? Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me so two things First, a moment ago, when I was saying I would be doing things like this during things like that, I have to be mindful that this is a podcast. So in interviews, I would be writing notes on a notepad as I'm talking about the weather, and I would hold up the notepad with a number or an arrow pointing up, or, for example, we'd be in a panel interview, and I would look directly at CES and do something funky with my head, and then I would look up to sort of signal or we would have offline conversations I would call from home or from my cell to have, you know, off the record conversations about compensation. So you know, so I just wanted to clarify that, but but to speak to you to the bonus. So. So, you know, I'm gonna give you a little background. So, you know, companies create their budgets. And I'm not going to get into the whole detail fiscal versus that, you know, so they create their budgets, each department has a budget. And, and they look at headcount, they forecast right, based on business, based on projects, you know, that are upcoming. So then we've got this big, big, you know, product launch in the fourth quarter of next year, we're going to need x number of, of people, so they get the headcount numbers, and they start printing the numbers, right? And so each department would, and I'm overly generalizing, but for the most part, this is how it works. So each department would get their budget, you know, for for headcount. And, you know, they can play with numbers. That's why sometimes you'll hear you know, the range is 100 to 150. But we can go higher for the right person, well, that means the next person coming in their salary gets their offer will their range gets compressed, right, because they got to get a pull from the same jar. So, so, if there's money left over, there are some companies where that manager or whoever's over that. That contributes to their bonus. It could be a bit of a bonus benchmark, you know, something that they're gauged on, you know, that qualifies them for the bonus, you know, and typically how they you know, the language is cost savings which means they didn't spend the money that they were allotted.

Acquania Escarne 30:01

Right? But somebody's gonna get their money. So it might as well be you or the applicant on the other side. So I appreciate you for being an advocate. But now I just and it's sad that we have to even go there. So a few years ago, I think it's been a trend now for some companies to actually publish their salaries right? And emphasize this image of equality, same role, same job, same pay, what do you think about that? Do you think that companies are genuinely being honest? And why aren't more companies being forced to do this?

Angela Bishop Ross 30:41

Okay, so do I think companies are genuinely being honest? Not necessarily, because there's, you know, there's so many ways to present information, right? You know, so yes, same south, same job, same salary. What about the people that have been in the position? Are you bringing them up? You know, it's called parity, right? So, you know, maybe for your new hires. But is there parity for your existing workforce? So that's the question. I don't care that you're publishing your salaries, and it's one job when salary and everybody we're bringing them I won't know about Shaniqua NEM, who've been there for 5, 6, 7 years. Are they're making? Are they making as much as Jimmy?

Acquania Escarne 31:37

That makes sense.

Angela Bishop Ross 31:39

That's what that's the questions we should be asking as a community, right? So, So parity, that's the word

Acquania Escarne 31:50

Parity. I liked that. So what are some concrete negotiation tips? Because you've already noted that sometimes you had to help us out. But what should I do or say? And is there ever a time when it's not appropriate to negotiate?

Angela Bishop Ross 32:07

There's never a time to negotiate. Everything is negotiable.

Acquania Escarne 32:13

Okay.

Angela Bishop Ross 32:14

Everything. I'm of the position that it never hurts to ask because even if the answer is no, you are in the same position, you were in no worse for wear. Right? And, you know, so that's so that's the worst case scenario, is it just say no, and you were you bet. But what if the doors open? And they give you room to negotiate? Everything's negotiable. What I want black women to understand is that is that that everything is negotiable. It's not just about the Benjamins. You know, sometimes you are coming in behind Jimmy, who got 50,000 above the range. So now your range as a candidate is compressed, right? So once you are satisfied, that that 150 is the best they really can do pay wise, tangible pay wise, because there's pay and then there's compensation, right? Compensation is your pay or your salary, your benefits, your PTO, your is called, they're calling they're, they're changing the names of everything now, but they're calling the extended learning or professional development. It you know, all of those things have have value have dollar signs attached to them, right? So you need to get clear what's important to you. If the Benjamins are important, and nothing else, then you need to be clear that you are in that you're placing in you're in a particular position. You're in a weaker position for negotiating really. Okay. But hey, if you're clear that that's what matters to you, then just know that going in, right? But hey, negotiate your benefits, negotiate time, negotiate a sabbatical? Okay, mental health is important, particularly for black women. Negotiate travel conferences. You know, hey, I want you know, look, if you can't meet my salary, are you open to non, you know, non salaried compensation? Or are you guys able to do that? And if you are then and make a list, make a list of what's important to you. Research that company, and understand, especially if it's if it's a nonprofit or a publicly traded company, and I can't remember, because not all publicly traded companies, they segment them so certain publicly traded companies actually are required to publish their, you know, their compensation packages above a certain job position. And I just, I can't remember what that rating is called. But anyway, um, you know, so research the company, reach out on LinkedIn to some of the employees and say, hey, you know, because the problem is we don't talk about our money with each other.

Acquania Escarne 35:29

Yes, that is problem number one. Yeah.

Angela Bishop Ross 35:31

And they count on that. They, it's like religion to them. They count on it. And there's nothing to be embarrassed about. Nothing.

Acquania Escarne 35:43

It's funny how a coach, we've created a culture where it's taboo to talk about how much you make, it's like, you offended somebody, when you ask that question.

Angela Bishop Ross 35:51

In the black community. I'm telling you something, why folks talk about it?

Acquania Escarne 36:00

Before the job interview, during the job interview, after because they want to know, before they even get to the compensation offer.

Angela Bishop Ross 36:09

Exactly. They talk about it, they you know, especially if there's if they know people at the company or there or it's a refer a friend situation, they'll say, hey, you know, the job, you know, the job you're going for isn't quite like mine, but this is what I'm at.

Acquania Escarne 36:25

Okay. I like that.

Angela Bishop Ross 36:27

You know, they talk they talk about it, girl.

Acquania Escarne 36:31

Oh, man.

Angela Bishop Ross 36:32

We don't. We walk around as if, and it's like, look, you know, they there should be no shame. We are all here to win.

Acquania Escarne 36:42

Right. And don't make it top secret, make it a conversation that people comfortably have. So we can help each other.

Angela Bishop Ross 36:48

Exactly.

Acquania Escarne 36:49

I like that. So I do have a question that I was talking to a friend about this recently. You know, I live in the DC area, which has a higher cost of living. And there are some companies that actually pay a locality pay or additional compensation because it's more expensive to live here. So you might get that additional pay in New York and DC and California, right? But if your job relocates you to a lower cost of living city and state, do you think it's fair to assume that you also have to take lower compensation?

Angela Bishop Ross 37:31

So this is probably gonna be unpopular.

Acquania Escarne 37:35

Okay, now speak on it, girl. Speak on it though.

Angela Bishop Ross 37:37

It depends. And let me, let me throw some things out. So if so, I'm gonna give you some some not so tangible, depends dependencies and some tangible dependencies. So we'll start with a tangible it depends on where that company is based. Because certain states have certain laws, that that company must abide by. Perfect example, California. I'm in San Francisco Bay area, where, you know, a 600-square foot tear down is $900,000. Right? Gas is $7. You know, bread is $6. I mean, you know, so on paper, you know, $150,000 sounds amazing. But but in actuality, you qualify for public assistance, if you make $100,000 a year for a family of four.

Acquania Escarne 38:41

Yeah, it's all relative.

Angela Bishop Ross 38:43

it's all relative. So, so, you know, in California, they can't back grade you. That's what it's called. Meaning that, you know, if you leave the Bay Area and move to Southern California, or move to Idaho, they can't back grade you if the company is based in California, and a certain number of their employees are based in California, right? So, so it kind of depends on the company, if they're a multinational company, and they may be headquartered in California, but they have X number of employees all over, they might be able to, but they're not going to be able to go below a certain level. So it's important that if you're going if you're working for the company, they relocate you somewhere where the cost of living is less, and you know where they're going. You do your research to understand what that cost of living is, what the differentials going to be. And then say, Hey, I know we move into Texas and you can be moving me to Texas, right, where it's significantly less, however, you know, and you plead your case. But it's important, you know, knowledge is power. And it's important to do your research understand, you know, at least the basics, you know, like it, you know, what's happening, where you're being relocated to, you know, when in whatever. So yeah, that's my two cents.

Acquania Escarne 40:22

Okay. I like that. That's a good answer, because I actually had I'm not from the HR background, but I was of the perspective that maybe I'm being selfish, but I was like, I think you should be offered the same or more, because you relocated, right? And I don't, you know, and I was like, No, I don't think it matters, that DC is more expensive than South Carolina and North Carolina, Georgia, wherever you going? Right? I'm like, if you told them you make 250 today, and they want you to move, then they should pay you at least 250 tomorrow. I don't know. I just feel like,

Angela Bishop Ross 41:01

Well, that, that. I mean, again, this is where it depends. So, you know, you're not wrong in your thinking. Because that's fair, right? That's fair, it's the right thing to do. Right? It seems right, you know, you company are telling me to keep my job, I got to move. And you want to cut my bang, right? So, so that so it's important to understand what what the company's policies are, is, well, it's important to speak up. You know, find out what they've been doing. Don't just let it happen. Be proactive, right? And, and, and, and if they say, Well, we're gonna have to backwards, they're probably not gonna call it that, but that's what it's called within, you know, they're gonna have to back raid you or cut your pay. You know, you want to understand why, you know, and it's okay to ask them, say, you know, I need to understand how did you arrive at that number? Right?

Acquania Escarne 42:06

That's a good question. That's a fair question.

Angela Bishop Ross 42:08

Do your research and be like, well, this kind of job pays this. This is how much milk costs. This is how much bread cost there is how much gas cost there. This is how much it's going to cost for me to maintain. So how'd you get to this number? What does it based on? Show me? You know, show me where the money reside? Show me the numbers?

Acquania Escarne 42:31

Where money reside. I love it. Yes, show me where the money reside. So I bet you probably so made me that but this is also another thing I feel about compensation. If you have the choice between a signing bonus or a higher salary, what would you take?

Angela Bishop Ross 42:51

Higher salary.

Acquania Escarne 42:52

Absolutely. I've always said that, but I've had people argue with me that they're like no, I want the signing bonus so I can invest it and I can do whoo whoo. And I said but base pay never changes, boo. raises are based off a base pay compensation as you get promoted is based off a base pay. Why wouldn't you deserve that? why would you settle for a one time check when you set yourself up for a lifetime?

Angela Bishop Ross 43:23

That you are taxed into next year on.

Acquania Escarne 43:28

Yes.

Angela Bishop Ross 43:31

You know, you are taxed into next year. It is a one time bump.

Acquania Escarne 43:37

The base pay the higher salary

Angela Bishop Ross 43:39

all day, all day every day. Higher base pay for 1,000, Alex.

Acquania Escarne 43:46

Yes. And just gonna make it's gonna make a game changer difference. The next time they offer you a raise the next time they say a cost of living increase,

Angela Bishop Ross 43:57

Not, not only that, let me tell you something, not only that, but when you leave that company and go to another one you can say I'm at this rate that you know, so much is based on your on your base pay. And, you know, when you take the bonus, not only are you being taxed at a much higher rate you're being taxed at 48%, right? So so that that 10,000 bonus is 5200 so you telling me you really gonna take that and invest it? Most people piddle it away. Or just blow it all together.

Acquania Escarne 44:47

Facts. I like it I like it. So at least I'm not the only one out here preach and take the higher base pay because I'm like, I don't understand that will set you up to make more money indefinitely potentially, depending on how this compensation squeezes going, as we talked about earlier, and it's, and I do feel like he said, it's a whole package, because we didn't even get into the equity part where some company stock or options, you know, I don't know yet I'm experienced with that working in tech. Yeah, yeah. And I know people who, for example, like some of my parents, friends from high school, they went into tech, they one of them worked at AOL before it was AOL. And they had stock options. And when AOL blew up, they cashed out like, multimillionaires in deciding, you know, I don't have to work anymore. But let me just keep a little bit of this for my kids' kids, but I'm out, right. So there's always the possibility that you, you know, saddle up with the right company, at the right time and boom.

And honestly, and I'm gonna be a little, you know, I'm gonna be a little more realistic with that, because, you know, there's a little bit of pie in the sky with that, right? I work I worked in tech, right, as the boom was starting. So we're talking '97 to '02 or '03, you know, I was at Google before became Google, Netscape, Netflix, SGI, which is Adobe, and a bunch of other, you know, tech companies that have now been absorbed by, you know, bigger, better, better. So, you know, when we were talking about when I was talking about everything's negotiable. You know, definitely negotiate for some equity, you know, ask for, ask for an escalated vesting schedule, right? Ask for, you know, instead of them parceling, you know, fractional shares per pay period. Ask for quarterly lump. Stop, you know, payments. I don't know why I can't think of think of the word, but gifts, sorry, you know, stock gifts, asked for that, you know, ask for additional contributions to your pension retirement or retirement plan a 401 k or IRA? I mean, there's so much but but the stock question the equity question, absolutely. That should be a given. And, and it's not even about, you know, looking up on the right company. Because, you know, if you're at a company period that has a has a stable stock price. It don't matter if it, you know, all of a sudden they go public and who equity is equity.

This is true. Pay me equity as Beyonce says.

Angela Bishop Ross 48:12

There's a reason why she said that.

Acquania Escarne 48:14

It's paid off for her. I mean, she's gotten in on companies before they went public, and then they went public, and that investment has paid off more than.

Angela Bishop Ross 48:24

You know what I'm gonna get, I'm gonna give you a more realistic, you know, situation, you know, a situation of where equity happened, even after the whole public thing, because, again, equity matters, whether the company is pre IPO or not. And that's what I want people to understand. So I'm gonna give you an example Jay Z with his champagne company, Aces, um, the I can't Oh, God, I can't think of the name of the champagne company. That if I can Google it real quick that came in and said we want 50%. Now, most people would be like, 50% Oh, hold up just a sec. But he negotiated equity. Right? He said, Okay, well, you know, let me get, you know, some equity in your company. And is this driving me nuts because I want to find out. Let's see Jay Z Aces. Cartier. So French champagne company, Cartier. In '06 purchased 50%, right? No. He participated in 2014, excuse me. And he said, Okay, well, you know, you want 50% of my brand, right? What am I gonna get? In addition to, Your buying a portion of my company? What do I get? In return? Let's do some swapping, right? So not only did he get paid out for, you know, for a portion of his company, but he got equity in Cartier. You know, yeah, so So you know, you you to negotiate equity on an existing public company. Equity is equity,

Acquania Escarne 50:40

Public or private ownership is ownership actually mean a lot for you when it comes to time to sell or reevaluate, and it can be lucrative for you financially. So having ownership and working there is like a sweet spot. Exactly. Yeah, I like that. So, this has been a really good conversation, and I've learned a lot about why we don't get the money that we're getting, and how to do better. So I appreciate the negotiation tips. But before we conclude, I asked my guests this question, because the name of the podcast is called The Purpose of Money. So I'd love to know, what is your purpose for money?

Angela Bishop Ross 51:23

Money, the purpose of money for me, is a level of freedom. So it will provide it provides a level of freedom and I don't mean that in, you know, I can go travel and, you know, buy bags and purchase property. But, you know, for the purpose of money for me is it's a tool, really a tool to get to freedom, it's a tool to help me live better. It's, you know, and for me, that's, that's a level of freedom, right? It means that I can hire someone to clean my house so that I can spend more time with my husband or my child, right? It means that I can hire someone to drive me because you know, I'm gimpy. I'm partially paralyzed, and I shouldn't be driving. You know, and I can be more productive, because I don't have to drive. Right? It means I can be more productive, because there are just some things that I don't have to do. Right? For me, it's a tool.

Acquania Escarne 52:32

I like it. And it's valuable. And we all need to utilize the tool to our advantage. And I and I love it. I've been wanting to do the same. I've utilized the income I've made to hire a chef because I don't want to cook anymore. And I want to eat healthier. And I don't want to order out all the time. And those are luxuries that some people think, Oh, she bougie she got a chef. She thinks she's this, she thinks she's that. And I said no, it actually was cheaper for me and my family, to hire someone to cook healthy meals on a regular basis than to eat out every single night or every other night. And I didn't have the time in my life to dedicate to cooking and running the business and being a mom and being a wife, and you know, and being present when I want to be present. Because then you're tired and you're not present. So I was like, what is one thing I could take off my plate and be cost effective. So I love it. Money is a tool, and it should be utilized to make our lives greater. So I love that answer. And I would love for my listeners to check you out on social media and on your website. Can you please let us know where can we find you?

Angela Bishop Ross 53:42

Absolutely. You can find me at coachangela.com and I am a coach Angela or coach Angela Ross across all platforms. And I've been in the coaching game long before coaching became a thing since 1998. And in quick correction, in addition to a business and money coach, I have a financial and small business services consulting firm where we have a tax practice. Tax and accounting practice a nonprofit practice and my baby, the business consulting practice where we work with other small businesses teaching them the mechanics of running a business one, you know and helping them get it up and running. So taxes is we do taxes but it's a small part. So I just wanted to correct that. But please check me out on Instagram. I'm Coach Angela Ross. You guys can find me at coachangela.com and yeah, check me out.

Acquania Escarne 54:36

Oh, yes, I'll make sure to include all of the ways to connect with you in the show notes and on the website. So please check it out. And if you liked this episode, please leave a five star review wherever you're listening, like it and share it with your friends. Tell all your girlfriends they need to listen to this episode and ask for more money. Until next time, keep building generational wealth.

Thank you for listening to The Purpose of Money Podcast. For more resources and information, check out my website, the purposeofmoney.com. And while you're there, please sign up for our newsletter so you have the latest information on new episodes and blog posts. Until next time, keep creating freedom in your life today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai