Episode 12: Love, Money & Relationships with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin

Acquania Escarne 0:04

You are listening to The Purpose of Money Podcast, a podcast where we talk about ways to build wealth and create more freedom in your life today. I am your host Acquania Escarne.

Hey guys! Welcome to The Purpose of Money Podcast. Today we have special guest, Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. She is a biracial financial therapist, speaker, and author who's passionate about helping high earning couples deepen their relationship, using money and psychology. It's her mission to open up a dialogue to help clients talk about their money beyond the dollars and cents. She hopes to teach all her couples how to stand in their couple as a power by including money in their relationship. She has a background in therapy and research. So we're going to have a interesting money conversation about money and relationships. Thank you so much, Lindsay, for being on the show. Welcome.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 1:03

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. We've been internet friends for a while. So it's fun to connect in this way.

Acquania Escarne 1:10

Yes. And I love it. I love how social media allows people in different spaces and places to connect. And that's how we connected! Just talking about finances online, and then choosing to take that conversation to the DMs, which is awesome. And now, I have you here on the podcast.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 1:28

Yay. I'm so excited.

Acquania Escarne 1:30

Yeah! So tell people-your platform is called Mind Money Balance. Tell us more about that and how you decided or why you decided to create it.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 1:42

Yeah, so Mind Money Balance came up, because I have a background in clinical social work. So I was a traditionally trained therapist for many years. And money stuff kept coming up in the therapy room, as you can probably imagine, but we're not really trained as therapists to handle those, that particular stressor. And in my own time, I've had an interest in personal finance. And I felt like there had to be a way to kind of bridge this gap. And the name comes from just this idea of believing that money is about so much more than just a budget or spreadsheet or, you know, goals. It's about what's going on in your mind and what's going on when you engage with your money. And so I wanted to help people be able to kind of connect those dots and not feel ashamed and get their way to feeling empowered in their relationship with money, because we all have a relationship with money. And I think that's really important. So that's Yeah, that's how it came about.

Acquania Escarne 2:47

That's awesome. And I like how you made it clear you saw a need and decided to take action to fill that need for others because you knew that it probably wasn't just you who was observing this, right?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 2:59

Right.

Acquania Escarne 3:02

Yeah. And that's how most entrepreneurs come about whether you intended for this to be your full time business at that time or not. So let's go back a bit! You used to counsel more than just couples and then at some point, you decided you want us to focus your business on that. So how's that going? How long have you been just really focusing on finances and relationships?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 3:26

So it's, it's been a...in the grand scheme of things, it's been pretty quick. So I got my certificate in Financial Social Work in May of 2018. I started seeing my first financial therapy clients in July or August of 2018. And then I got on social media, you know, late winter of 2018, and told myself that 2019 was going to be the year of like, really going all in on financial therapy. So as I did that, I kind of said, well, whoever has financial and emotional stressors can come see me. And that was way too broad of a range as you can imagine, everyone's hands in audience go up they're like "me!" And what I found was that the clients who kind of lit me up the most, were people who are coming in as individuals, but they were partnered or married. And they were convinced that the money stuff was just their problem. And I really quickly want to know if we need both people in the partnership in the room, and so then I kind of created a new rule that if you are married or seriously partnered, I have to see you together. And then now, that any new client comes in is a couple. So I kind of I kind of followed the things that I was seeing in the office and I'm a child, pardon me, I'm a child of divorce. Like many people, you know, probably around 50% of us are children of divorce. And money is the second leading cause of divorce. And I felt like you know what, there is something we can do to tackle this in a way that is helpful for the couples that I see. And so talking about money and helping couples talk about money and fold it into their relationship has been huge. And that's how I got to where I am now.

Acquania Escarne 5:22

That's awesome. And I like how you are also for those who are trying to figure out what they should focus on, you basically described how you narrowed your niche. For those who don't know, when it comes to a business, it's really helpful for you if you know exactly who you're targeting, and just focus on that. So you started out very broad as many of us do. And then you found that what drives you and what motivates you the most is couples. And I also appreciate how you're honest about most couples, they think it's just one person in a relationship who's the problem, and then they realized that together is how they really get to the solution. So you have the ability and the courage to tell them, "hey, you need to bring your partner into this conversation. Otherwise, the two of you will continue to struggle, because only one person will be taking the strides in one direction and then the other person may be on a totally different page." So, what's some tips that you have for couples in similar situations where one person may be pursuing getting out of debt or financial freedom and retiring early, and the other partner is not on that same page yet?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 6:33

This is one of the most common questions I get from people who are considering working with me. My DMS are almost always filled up with "How do I get my partner on board?" And my response to that is so irritating because it's such a therapist response, but it's my work is it's not about trying to state your case and go into trying to convince your partner with all the facts and figures and the whys and the hows. You don't want to come in as though you're in debate club. You want to come in and say, "What are our goals as a unit? And how or why might this financial plan or this financial trajectory be the best for us?" And that is a subtle shift. But it's a game changer. Because what happens to your point is if you have two people moving in two different directions, and not communicating about it and trying to convince the other one, that their path is the right path, you're on, you're not even on the same road, right? You're You're just heading in the opposite direction versus saying, "Okay, let's sit down together as a unit, as a family, and how, why is it important for us to get out of debt? What do we envision for ourselves in 5-10 years? And then how could we together reverse engineer our way there?" And even if it is the person who is the most interested in financial independence or in getting out of debt who's kind of taking the lead on the hows and whys. At least both people are collaborating on that goal.

Acquania Escarne 8:09

That's important its collaboration and communication. But it definitely matters if you're both not on the same page. And I think what you're saying is so true, because you have to both be aware of what you're trying to do. That way you can both be held accountable if one person gets off path even slightly. So that's really good advice. Thanks for sharing that. And is this also the most common thing that you see?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 8:38

Oh, I don't know if it's the most common thing that I see. But I would say it's one of the most common questions that I get. One of the most common things I see is that people want to solve their money problems by jumping into the money part, which sounds really logical. Except that most of us have emotional or psychological baggage that prevents us from taking those steps to make that behavior change with our money. So for me, it's often helping couples hit pause for a second and say, "I know you really, really, really want to get to the budget, and to getting out of debt and saving for your future. And I promise you, we will get there. But first, we have to figure out why it's been so hard for you, and what's been getting in the way for you. " So we can kind of take out those emotional barriers and also just provide them with some education on why those barriers might have cropped up based upon things they experienced in their childhood. And that's the other thing that I get a lot of pushback on is like, you know, I'm 45 ,I'm 32. Why do I have to talk about what happened when I was six?" Right, right! And I'm like,"I hear you except that our little brains are soaking up so much information in those formative years. So we do have to go back and kind of go, Well, what did your parents talk about in the kitchen when money came up? Or what did you overhear your neighbors yelling about when it came to finances? Or what was the message you got from your grandma in church when it came to money?" And we all have messages, whether it's don't care, you know, you shouldn't care about money, good people don't care about money, whether it was we would have a better life if we have more money. We all get those messages. So I love to first take my couple back in time before we dig into the actual nuts and bolts.

Acquania Escarne 10:39

That's a really good point. And I recently following fin con, so for those that don't know, there's a financial conference where people who like to talk about money, I call them money nerds all get together, and it's called fin con. It meets annually and we bring together Podcasters, Bloggers, Financial Advisors, anyone who's in this space who's talking about money, financial freedom, and different strategies. And right after fin con last year, I gathered some of the other participants and I wrote a blog about money myths. And what we learned or were told by our family or our friends about money and how those things weren't necessarily true, but they're things that we believe. And so I totally agree with you that even when we're not thinking about it, like the saying, "money doesn't grow on trees." You know, people use that casually like, it's the saying or phrase, but it has meaning to it too, because for some people, maybe they don't have an abundance mindset. So they're always thinking about scarcity. Whereas someone who won't has a different perspective and they're thinking about abundance and they have an abundance mindset, might not even care about even using that phrase in their vocabulary, because they do believe that money is accessible to them. They have to work for it, or they have to find it or whatever it may be. And so it's really interesting that you're working with your clients to get to the root of what's in their head about money. What is shaping their mindset and relationship with money?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 12:21

Yeah, I love all of those examples. And that perfectly illuminates how we get our beliefs, right, money doesn't grow on trees. So what how did it How did you as a child interpret that? You might have interpreted that as an order to have money I have to work really, really, really hard for it, right? And that kind of touches on that scarcity and abundance mindset. So yeah, thank you for highlighting some some additional examples.

Acquania Escarne 12:47

Yeah. And I'll make sure in the show notes to link the article. So anyone out there listening wants to read more and the perspective from a couple of other financial bloggers, then you can have that to read. But that's really cool. I like that you're doing this and you're providing a service that some people don't even realize they need. So where do you find most of your clients? Is it word of mouth? Referrals? Social media? Like where's your target audience finding you?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 13:16

That is a great question and one that I am still figuring out! I looked at the kind of analytics for 2019 to see where I was getting people. And it was a little bit all over the place. So I'm sure that this year I'll get better metrics and data, but it was almost evenly split between things like Google. The Financial Therapy Association has the listing of all financial therapists in the country. And when I say all you have to apply to be listed, but then that means that you are a financial therapist, so I got a lot of referrals through them. Referrals of course, through word of mouth. And then kind of secondary referrals, such as if I was a guest on a podcast. Or if I was doing a speaking event, things like that. So it's a little bit all over the place. And I'm really I'm really excited to see how those numbers shift as I get into another year of doing this work.

Acquania Escarne 14:19

Awesome. So what does it take? I mean, if someone might be interested in pursuing this as a career field, besides having a passion for helping people with their finances, and then having your degree, of course, in psychology, how do you get the financial therapist title? Did you have to take an exam or study something in particular for that?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 14:42

Yeah. So first of all, thank you for the additional years that you just gave me. My degree is in social work.

Acquania Escarne 14:50

Oh, wow. Yeah, yep.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 14:52

So my degree is in clinical social work, but in terms of how to go about getting the label, there are a few different ways, and I imagine it'll start to become clearer over time. And I'll explain what I mean. So financial social work, I got my certification in that which is, I believe it was 40 continuing ed hours, and you have to take an exam. So that was how I got mine. And then right now, I'm getting enough hours to get my Financial Therapy Level One Certificate from the Financial Therapy Association. And in order to get that certificate, you have to have a degree in something mental health related so Social Work, Counseling, or Psychology or a degree in something personal finance related. And I think they'll include things like if you're a CPA or CMP. So you have to have one of those two backgrounds, and then it's, I can't remember if it's 12 or 15 educational modules, you have to take an exam, you have to have 500 client hours in order to get that one. So those are the big waves right now. And the reason I say I think we're going to kind of get narrowed in on the CFT Level One, the Certified Financial Therapists Level One, is because they did go ahead and get it trademarked and credentialed. So I think we'll start to see that be one of the gold standards. So those are a couple of paths. And then in terms of long term paths, there are a handful of social work schools that offer financial social work programs. I wanna say Maryland has one, and then Kansas State University has one of the only financial therapy graduate programs, so there aren't a ton of options right now. Um, so those so again, I would I would guide people towards the FInancial Therapy Association. I'm not affiliated with them in any way. I'm not like getting a kickback. They just have some of the most comprehensive tools and guidance that I have seen out there.

Acquania Escarne 17:00

And I think you raise a good point, that as we continue to progress and learn more about people and behavior and finances, we're going to continue to see the development of more programs and certifications like this, because we need specialists who can help people with these issues. And I think that it's okay to highlight that it's still getting better and progressing. But there are some places where you can study it more and then have a sense of knowledge that allows you to best help people. So that's pretty awesome. And thanks for providing those resources. I'll make sure to link those in the show notes as well. I think that it's really awesome that you're taking this approach because so many people skip over the beginning on their relationship or why they think the way they do about money and how it is affecting their current relationships. So I want to ask you honestly, like how did you develop your sense of money and your desire to keep your finances in order and help other people with their finances? Was it something in your childhood?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 18:12

That's a really good question. So I am really fortunate in that I had, what I believe to be really good financial literacy literacy skills, given to me by my mother. My mother was really good about just kind of narrating the things that she was doing with her money, whether that was you know, going through the ATM and talking about what she was doing, whether it was pointing out CD rates, or money market accounts when we were in the bank. And making sure that once I got my first job, that a percentage of it was going into a savings account that I couldn't touch. So I got a lot of information in that way. And then, you know, I was a young adult and made a lot of financial mistakes as we are, you know, as we do. So I kind of blew through all of my money after my first job out of undergrad, undergrad school, undergrad school. I don't know.Maybe, you know what I mean!

Acquania Escarne 19:16

I know what you mean and I can edit that too, don't worry! What's your your first job out of undergrad? You blew all your money?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 19:25

Yes, yeah. So I had like eight or nine month contract job in marketing where all of my expenses were paid. And I had like, a small, I mean, I think I made like $500 bucks a week or something like that. So I'd saved up all of this money. And it felt like fun money because they covered my cell phone bill. I didn't have any housing expenses because I lived out of a hotel. You know, I have a per diem for food. So I felt like I was you know, Queen of the castle. And I actually did not like that job. So once that contract ended, they asked me to stay and I said "No way." And what I did was traveled the world. So I went to Europe and Asia by myself for about three months, and came back with not a lot of money in my bank account. Get myself another job, not really recognizing how the economy had played out. So I graduated in May of 2008 when the economy was still really good. And so when the economy crashed, my job had been isolated from that crash. So I didn't experience the pain of that, and I had thought that I would be able to get a job, you know, like that. And when I kind of came back from my trapeezing around the world, I was kind of faced with reality of, oh, wow, no, the times have changed. And I went back to waitressing and serving with no shame right? I'm a proponent that any job is a good job, and kind of had to figure out what my next steps are going to be. So I went back to serving for a couple of years and did a lot of volunteering and interning, and then ended up going into social work school to graduate and get a job that paid less than I made as a server and bartender. So, you know, I think I just realized how important money is in having stability. And even if you do have a good financial footing from your family, you're still bound to make mistakes. And so I think that was a part of it was like, I have the basics down, but now I have to figure out how to implement them. And I started doing a lot of reading and consuming, you know, I spent a lot of time at the library, checking out books on personal finance and figuring it out and making sure that, you know, I had my Roth IRA set up and that I was setting aside money for an emergency fund. So there was a lot of that and then in my romantic life, I was seriously partnered. And it was, we got married. And that that brought up a ton of stuff because as I mentioned, my parents were divorced. So there was a lot of my own mindset issues around combining finances. To me, the fear was, if I combine my finances with my partner, I'm no longer safe, I no longer have my own money. So I did do a lot of work around that. And then finding that actually, that helped us to do what I kind of had mentioned earlier in the show, which is to stand in our strength as a couple by combining our finances and talking about it and by being on the same page as a unit. So I went through all the different things that a lot of people do. And let me be really clear that I was also really fortunate not to have student loan debt.

Acquania Escarne 22:55

Okay.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 22:56

I knew I came out ahead of the curve. So yeah, I think that's my money story. And I, as quick of a rundown as I can do it.

Acquania Escarne 23:06

I love it, though, and everybody's story is different. But I appreciate you highlighting that student loan debt is not one of the challenges you face. But it doesn't mean you didn't face challenges. And it doesn't mean your story is not as of value as anyone else, because you had other things that you needed to take reality of like traveling and then coming back to an economy where you didn't necessarily go back into the career field you were in, but choosing to be a server, which is important because there are skills picked up in that too that'll help you become the person you are. So that's pretty awesome. I love your money story. I think it was great.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 23:44

Well thank you.

Acquania Escarne 23:46

I think you should keep using it as your wake up call, because you had a lot of opportunities where you could have gone astray. And you came back and said, "Nope, this is the money path for me. And this is how I'm going to help other people too." So love it!

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 24:00

Thank you, thank you! And I also think it's important to just know, wherever you are with your money story, owning the pieces that you have that do come from a place of privilege, and not assuming that everybody else has that same starting point.

Acquania Escarne 24:16

That is awesome. And an excellent point that most people in positions of privilege don't want to acknowledge. So that's pretty good. I do have a question, though, about couples and how they choose to handle their money. I know that you in your story, and maybe even with some of your clients have talked about combining your finances, but does that always mean combining your bank accounts? Or is there a way to be on the same page, but maybe still have separate bank accounts?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 24:47

Oh, that's such a good question. And I get a lot of pushback for this.

Acquania Escarne 24:52

It's okay, to have your own perspective, sometimes you have to pick a pick a side but I'm just curious.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 24:59

Totally. So I would say in most cases, what I find to be the best approach is to combine bank accounts. And the second best approach to me is then to do, There's Mine and Ours account where you at least have one joint account. And then you might have your own separate accounts. And the reason for that is because if you keep everything separate, unless you're having very frequent, transparent money dates about what's going on in each person's account, it's really hard to be a unit, right? Because then what tends to happen is you tend to get into a dynamic that is more that of roommates than that of partners, because you're saying, "Oh, I paid our mortgage, or did you give me money for rent? Or I picked up dinner the other night, you have to buy groceries." And that to me, separates the two of you from being a couple in that way. And again, I know I'm going to get pushback for that and that's okay. That's just what I find to work which is why then my opinion is the second best thing is that there's Mine and Ours account. Where you at least have a joint account where you're saving for goals as a partnership. And also, you know your regular expenses are being funneled into that. My partner and I, what we do as we have everything combined, but at the beginning of the month, I go to the ATM and I take out cash and we each get a stack of cash that we get to do whatever the heck we want to do with it. And it's our fun money and our way of having autonomy and not having to double check, "Can I go out to dinner with friends? Or do we have money for me to go to the movies tonight?" Like we each get our stack of money and we can do whatever we want with it. And so like I was reflecting on my my fun money expenses last year, and I spent a couple of months of my fun money saving up to get a tattoo because like that's not a shared expense in my opinion and our relationship.

Acquania Escarne 27:00

Really? Does it count if you get your partner's name?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 27:06

That might have been the loophole!

Acquania Escarne 27:10

No, but that's so cool. That's such a good story. And it's a practical one to your partner could have been like, "Well, why should I pay for your tattoo? It's not on my body."

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 27:20

Exactly. Which is why it wasn't even a discussion. I was just like, "Hey, babe, just by the way, this is what's happening." He's like, "Cool, you know, that's your money. You do your thing."

Acquania Escarne 27:30

I love it. Thank you for sharing that. See, sometimes people want to be big picture, but I'm like, "No, I need practical examples." Because we're all human. We're making real decisions. And I want to know how can I use this in my life right now. So that was a really good example and I I've seen in the clients that I work with also how fun money is what helps keep the tension down when it comes to talking about money. Because they know that they each got their own allowance, and they were able to make their own decisions. Sometimes though, you'll see one person spend their allowance a little faster than the other.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 28:08

Totally, totally. I will totally call out my husband and he spends his fun money really quickly in that last week of the month. You always like, shoot, like, that's your deal. That's your problem, not mine.

Acquania Escarne 28:20

Right. And sometimes I wonder, like, how do you decide that maybe the allowance should be more?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 28:29

That's a good question. So we, I think we increased it at one point because what we were finding was... I'm trying to remember because it's been a little while. We were spending a lot of money eating out, but it wasn't like we were eating out together, right? We were doing a lot of our socializing with our kind of friends by going out to eat so we ended up increasing our fun money allowance, and then kind of decreasing our joint eating out expense. I think that's how we came up with it. And I think we'll probably tweak it, to be honest with you. We're working on paying off my husband's student loans right now. And then after that, I think we'd both be pretty comfortable increasing our fun money a little bit, to kind of celebrate that milestone, and not all of it right? We're not going to go from paying of his student loans to Like, "yeah!"

Acquania Escarne 29:23

No, but that's a good point too, celebrating the milestones. I tell people, your financial journey is a journey. It's not a sprint. It could potentially feel like a marathon sometimes, but you're gonna be able to celebrate along the way or you should celebrate along the way. I think some people are so focused on that finish line, that they don't do that and the celebrations no matter how small they are, are what keeps you motivated, and they encourage you to accomplish another milestone because you did a great job at accomplishing that one.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 29:58

I love that. And it's so important! Like you're saying it's a marathon, right? So if you're only celebrating at mile 26, you're missing out on those other 25 miles that you did.

Acquania Escarne 30:09

Exactly. And nothing is easy in a sense that, you know, sometimes we'll have great, great milestones, we'll get raises, we'll get bonuses and then maybe we have an emergency expense that we weren't expecting. And now you have to use some of your savings to pay for it. So you do have to celebrate the good times so that when you hit those obstacles, they don't set you back mentally, they just set you back financially, right? But then you can recover faster. Because you're one you had the savings to pay for it. So you're in a much better position. But you know, it's temporary, you know, you're going to rebuild your emergency fund back up, you know that you're going to hit another savings milestone. So I always encourage people stay as positive as you can along the journey too but understanding that life happens and it's not always in our control. It's just that when you get your finances together, you're in a much better position to react.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 31:07

Mm, yes. And it's so so true. Like the reason we have emergency funds and sinking funds, is so that when life happens, because it will,we're prepared.

Acquania Escarne 31:20

Exactly. Yeah, this was such a good conversation. I am excited for you because you've created a niche that's such a need. You're helping partners and couples really excel in not only their relationship, but their financial relationship, and you are fine tuning your business. So I want my listeners to be able to connect with you. So let us know where can they find you on social media, and connect with you in the future?

Unknown Speaker 31:52

I'm all over Instagram @MindMoneyBalance, and I just opened up a private page @MindMoneyCommunity. And so you have to answer a few questions to get in. But that's where we kind of dig in a little bit deeper. And because it is a private page, there's a little bit more autonomy there to be vulnerable. So that's really exciting. And then of course, my website mindmoneybalance.com. And I just have my book come out, the Financial Anxiety Solution, and you can order it from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Indiebound. And I'm offering all podcast listeners a free bonus video training of me going over Values Based Spending and Saving. So if they just go to my website, mindmoneybalance.com/podcast, m all the details are there about how to get access to that training.

Acquania Escarne 32:46

That's awesome. Okay, so tell me a little bit more about the book. Let's just give a little snippet for those who want to dive in. What is the Financial Anxiety Solution about?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 32:57

It is all about the mindset and emotions that come along with engaging with money. A lot of Americans say that the biggest emotion they feel when they engage with their money is anxiety. So the book is an interactive workbook style book, so that people can go through various exercises to start feeling comfortable and confident with their money. Of the chapters in the book, only one of them is really dedicated to the nuts and bolts of money. The rest of it is really about how we think, how we feel, when it comes to our money, so we can dial down that anxiety and feel really comfortable and safe interacting with our money.

Acquania Escarne 33:39

That's awesome. And I really appreciate it. I want you guys to go check out her book, check out her website. Of course I'm gonna include the link all of this in the show notes, so make sure to check out the show notes for information and links to connect with Mind Money Balance. Lindsay, you have been awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. I hope to chat with you again or see you in the future at one of our conferences we have in common.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 34:06

Yes, yes, I would love to meet in person and yes, it's been great. Thank you so much for having me.

Acquania Escarne 34:13

Awesome!

Thank you for listening to The Purpose of Money Podcast. For more resources and information, check out my website, the purposeofmoney.com. And while you're there, please sign up for our newsletter, so you'll have the latest information on new episodes and blog posts. Until next time, keep building generational wealth $1 at a time.

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