Episode 22: Black Women’s Equal Pay Day with Eugenie George

Acquania Escarne 0:04

You are listening to the Purpose of Money Podcast, a podcast where we talk about ways to build wealth and create more freedom in your life today. I am your host Acquania Escarne.

Welcome to the Purpose of Money Podcast. If you're joining me for the first time, I'm so glad to have you. This episode is a good one. I'm speaking with financial wellness coach, Eugenie George. We're discussing money stories and how yours may be shaping your relationship with money. Also, I wanted to let you know that this is the last episode for season one. If you have not listened to all 22 episodes, this is a great time to catch up. Listen to the podcast on your favorite podcast app. And please also take time to leave a review and a five star rating. Reviews are so important guys and not only helps other people know what they can gain from listening to the podcast, it also helps people know that I am out here providing this valuable free content, and that they should listen to it too. And you know how it goes when they read a good review, they want to listen. So help me out! Share episodes that you love, encourage people to subscribe and leave a review. I really appreciate it. Season Two is going to kick off on Wednesday, September 16. I have some amazing stories coming your way and we're going to have some women who are creating more freedom in their life today and have amazing wealth building story. So get ready. In the meantime, catch up on old episodes and I thank you in advance for listening. Now without further ado, let's hop on into this money chat with Eugenie George. Hope you enjoy!

Hey guys, welcome back to The Purpose of Money Podcast. I'm super excited today to have Eugenie George on the podcast. Eugenie is a financial wellness specialist and educator who attributes her success in personal finance from creating an unorthodox way of viewing money. From paying off student loans to navigating her family financial situation, she understands the old method of wealth building doesn't work for women of color. In her book, Our Money Stories, she shares the truth, even her current net worth, to help you build a financial wellness plan through weekly money practices and strategies for understanding your money story. Eugenie, thank you so much! How are you doing today? Welcome to the podcast.

Eugenie George 2:38

Thank you. I'm trying to stay dry. It's like 98 degrees out here with humidity. So...

Acquania Escarne 2:46

It's crazy. Where are you joining us from today?

Eugenie George 2:48

I'm in Philly.

Acquania Escarne 2:50

Love it. So welcome. This is The Purpose of Money Podcast, where we talk about all things money, and today we're going to have a powerful conversation about women and wealth. Because this is out right around Equal Pay Day. So before we jump into that about equal pay day and why it matters, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Eugenie George 3:12

I'm a financial wellness specialist. And what that means because financial wellness is pretty murky, like you can hear it on now everyone's saying it so you hear banks, you hear, I mean, literally every single financial thing. People are talking about financial wellness, but there's no real definition for financial wellness. The only definition is to achieve financial stability. But if 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, ah, what do you, what do we actually think stability means and what does that look like? So that's what I did. For my book, I basically said, "Well, you know what, we're going to create it." And what we're going to do is we're going to look at the eight pillars of wellness and Eight wellness pillars. And then we're going to ask ourselves based off of our history, based off our ancestry, based off our environment, how does each portion of our wellness pillars play a role into our money stories? So, I mean, I had my podcast Money and Flow, basically was me asking a lot of questions. And it gave me more qualitative research. And once I kind of got that, then I started asking women that identified as Asian American, Native, Indigenous, Latinx and black, African American. And I just asked people about their money story, and I made it, whereas I wouldn't disclose their name. So I said, you know, we'll give you pseudonyms, but if you tell me the truth, then we can actually talk and make something more real in the forefront when it comes to women and money.

Acquania Escarne 4:59

I love that. So how long did it take you together to research for your book?

Eugenie George 5:03

Two years.

Acquania Escarne 5:04

Amazing. Did you have any challenges? Were you ever thinking this is too much? I'm just gonna quit now.

Eugenie George 5:12

Yes. Like literally every like three months I'm like I'm done. And I would always say "I'm done with the book!" I'm telling like my my now fiance was like, "You're not done with the book." And he would say that every, you know, three months. So, the first so when I first started writing out the book, I was just basically upset because I love personal finance books. Clearly that's like why I'm doing it. I like reading about them. But I was getting frustrated because there was no like behavioral economics portion of it. So there was never enough evidence to say you know, what happens if your your sister's sick, and you're the main provider? Eveen if you're making six figures, You're the main provider and everybody's coming to you because you're basically the glue of the family. Right? And so how does that actually affect your whole money story? It can affect it dramatically. So I just got frustrated, because everyone keeps saying that we're rational investors, you can be a rational investor. And there's no such thing as that. There's just no such thing as a rational person thinking rationally, especially when it comes to money. So we should really throw that narrative out, because even Warren Buffett, which everyone likes to say, he was the most rational. He still had a life, he still had a wife, he still had kids. And he still, you know, was patient about certain things. But that happened because he learned when he was 12. So when you think about whatever the the 10,000 hours or what, you know, what have you, he had more time to think, well, I can't take my money out because if I take my money out this is what's going to happen. So I just get frustrating when you hear that. And, you know, most personal finance books are written by males and males that are melanin challenged. So I would be like, "Okay!" And then so while I wrote it, and while I was in grad school, I had basically access to research because they give you access to a library, they give you access to different things. So I was able to connect with people that I wouldn't, because I said I was a student. And then I wrote this article for the financial planning industry because I'm in the process of becoming a certified financial planner. So I wrote an article and I was like, "Hey, this is what I've seen. Does anybody know about this? What do you guys think?" And I've had all this like positive reception from from pretty much mostly men. They were like, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know women of color have these problems. I didn't even know I had trauma."

Like, it was just like all this stuff was was clear. So, yeah, I use my shoestring budget of $2,000 and resources. And I was able to put it out there. And I will say, for The Purpose of Money podcast, you know, it was really hard because there's still flaws in the book. There's still errors, like spelling errors, there's still, there's still problems. But I felt like if I didn't put it out at the time that I did, then it wouldn't be received. And right now we're at this really weird time in history. And soon as when I produced it, like, the Black Lives Matter movement came, it was like, I just had to put it out there. So hopefully I'll be able to get republished with an agent, but I'm very grateful about that process. And I think if anybody's on the struggle, bus for wealth or wealth building, likel, just know it takes time. And now this book is a my stream of income. So I was really trying to be really strategic about control and how I wanted to portray women.

Acquania Escarne 9:09

You just inspired me. I've been working on my book in my head for so long, but now I'm thinking I should do what you did- be done but not perfect. And let the book speak for itself because people are still buying it. And don't worry, guys, I will include a link to the book in the show notes. I definitely want you to support Eugenie's book, her website, and listen to her podcast episodes from the past. So let's dive into Equal Pay Day and why it matters. It is August 13, this year, correct?

Eugenie George 9:42

Yes, Black Women's Equal Pay Day is August 13.

Acquania Escarne 9:45

So why do you think we need to even have a day to acknowledge that black women are still not receiving equal pay, and how do we amplify this message?

Eugenie George 9:58

I think the the biggest issue with the Equal Pay is we're still not providing tools. We're still giving statistics. So we can do the statistics all day long. Do Native Americans get equal pay? Latinx actually the Latinx Indigenous women of color, their equal pay is in November, November. I probably like 20th. Right? Um, but you hear that and you're like, Oh, this is terrible. And then there's there isn't anything that's actionable. But late since this, this aware awakening of inequity, now you're starting to see women holding workshops, black women, doing a webinar seminars, all of this stuff. So you're actually seeing more people taking advantage of the their situation. Me in particular, when I started this, my business, I started five years ago, and going up and down with the business was great. And or like understanding my money was was great. However, like I was not charging what I really should have been charging for the amount of work that I do. Right? I wrote it. It took me two years to write a book. It requires a lot of work and time and, you know, not postponing a wedding, postponing children. And yeah, that I think, I didn't see that until black until I really thought about black woman's equal pay. And then, three years ago, I kept saying, What am I going to do each year to improve my pay? And if you want me to talk about like actionable steps, we could do that too.

Acquania Escarne 11:56

Yeah, let's go right into it. So what do we do? I know entrepreneurship is sometimes the go to for a lot of people because as an entrepreneur, you have the power to control what you earn and what you build. But there's some people who are saying, "I'm not built for that, or I don't want to be an entrepreneur" but I definitely want to build well. So what are some of your actionable tips?

Eugenie George 12:19

Well there's there's two things. One is that you can always find someone that's a couple steps ahead of you. So really kind of think about who are you talking to, who your net Who are your what I like to call financial BFFs? Who are the people that are going to elevate your your money story in a way that your family and friends cannot? So you have to kind of find that and so I'll talk briefly about my my story and my situation, then I'll give actionable steps. So, um, I when I started my business, I didn't happen so fast and I lost all my money, all my savings, everything. Got evicted from my apartment like that. Like it was like six months, I was like walking on fire or whatever. And the next six months, everything was gone. So I was like, "Whoa," because I had saved money I had done I thought what I thought was following the steps. I was a frugal person it was, you know, but when you run out of money and you don't have financial friends, and you one as black women if you don't ask for help, I didn't ask for help. I was really prideful. And a lot of times, I grew up where my parents said, "Just pray about it." I don't know prayer can get you to give you a peace of mind but it can't always provide stability without you knowing the numbers. So basically, I googled anybody, everybody. I was like, "Who can I find that could help me with this?" And I just so happened to learn about Ashley Fox. Who has a company called.. amplify? But she's in my neighborhood. She's in Philly. Now she has, I think a seven figure but she's doing really well. But she had written an article about getting evicted. And like all the stuff she had taken, basically, she was in a stock. She worked in a financial firm, did the stock like everything, and she walked through her whole like, process of I went back home, I got really serious and I got really focused on my numbers. So that was basically my one of my first financial BFFs that I like had read about. And then I had a friend who has a really successful company, where she helps people get into like Harvard and stuff. She had the same exact experience. And I said, "Oh, let me call her." Because I was like, I knew I remember like some she said, and she's like I did Debtors Anonymous, which is Free. She's like, I just would be on these phone calls and try to understand debt and how it works. Um, I don't want everybody to go through that. But what I'm saying is like, you can find your BFFs through trial and error. They're not always going to be perfect. But I just kept trying to ask, like, how can I figure this out?

So, when we think about action items in Black Woman's Equal Payday, there are a couple of steps that I really want people to think about. So the first thing is really find out what your money story is. Some people go "Oh, yeah, you know, I went to college, or I got this job, and that's my money story." And it's like, no, what did your parents tell you about money? For me, it was like, I grew up in the church. So what did I learn? I got learned most of my money advice from the church, and that's still by a person. So I had to break that down. Then I was like, "Well, how do I learn? What did my parents say? What did my friends say? What did like...wow, I had to literally break down every piece of how I view money. Right?And then the other thing is I got a therapist, and we did a lot of work because most of the money stuff. Yeah, we didn't even realize that it had to do with money. I remember one time I, my family is from Louisiana in the south, and they would say, a whistling lady and a crowing hand never have a good end. And I was like, I wish... they would say that all the time. I was like, "What are they talking about?" Well come to find out. It really means if you're if you act a certain way, or if you whistle, right? It's an old parable, but it basically means like, you're going to be alone and not have any money like you're going to be a Spinster, and it's like actually derived from like, like Irish saying, because a lot of Irish people and slaves used to work next to each other so well, I went to super meta, like, clearly, I did a lot more research. But so many of the things that we say creates the problem. When we say that there's an equity gap, when we say that there's a racial gap, the idea of gap means that we're able to close it. We didn't have the we did not have the opportunity to do so. Nor do we have the language. So it's really about understanding that. Then the second part is like really understand your numbers, like print out every credit card bill, print out all your credit scores, print out everything you own and really try to find out where you are with your net worth. My net worth right now is negative $60,000 something like that. And people are like, "Well why are you telling people that? Well, why?" You know, and I go, "Well, I just went to graduate school." But you have to understand if I I'm dealing with, I have a business. So I have an accountant. I am working on student loans. So now I'm going to student loan planner. So they can literally use my savings plan as a way to pay back my student loans quicker. I have a financial planner, right? And so I have to build my basically my squad and my team to actually get to the place that I want to get to. And right now the person that I aspire to is Bola from Clever Girl Finance, and Jamila from what is it?

Acquania Escarne 18:34

Journey to Launch.

Eugenie George 18:35

Because both of them have said the same exact thing, which is once I got $100,000 in my bank account, then I was able to do stuff. So I keep thinking so I actually went back to getting a full time job, because I said, "That's right! I can't do the business full time right now." Lots of things have changed, right? So I need to make the sacrifice, to not be an entrepreneur full time right now, so that I have the hundred thousand dollars in the next four years. So it's it's it's really about understanding those numbers so you can actually know what you're worth and actually know how to ask for and negotiate.

Acquania Escarne 19:17

Yeah, I love that and then you did a lot I have to unpack it a little bit to get into it.

Eugenie George 19:23

Sorry!

Acquania Escarne 19:23

No, but I was like, "I'm not gonna stop her because she's on a roll." And I wish I could just take all the notes right now. But I think you're so right. So Jamilla Souffrant is one of the podcasts I look up to as well. She's amazing and so was Clever Girl Finance, the platform of which is teaching women how to handle their wealth is amazing. But I agree with you and even in my own personal experience, once I hit $100,000 in retirement savings, the money just doubled so much faster. People don't understand the power of larger numbers to start with plus compound Interest plus time, just really propels you. And it also motivates you to because once you see those six figures, and you're like, "Oh my god, I saved six figures, I can do anything." You know? I can say for my child's education. I can be an entrepreneur and put money aside for a side business. You have so many aspirations now, because you've accomplished something that's huge. And there are a lot of people who can't even get to that step. And I appreciate your transparency, not only in your net worth and discussing that, you know, like being honest, it's negative right now, I just graduated from school, school cost money, school loans. It's real, right? A lot of people have that situation. But it's also important to recognize, in your case, you're like this is temporary. I just need to find the path to plan to get out of the negative into the positive. And if a job is going to help me get there, I need to go get that job. You have so many people who are like, "no, if you're going to be an entrepreneur, You need to be all in. You need to only work for yourself." No. Some people need an investor, which is their job. Some people need a steady paycheck before they can fully rely on a business. I have a nine to five. This is my side hustle. Having a podcast, selling life insurance, helping women build wealth is what I do on the side. It's what gives me the passion and the drive. That's what I really want to do. But I know I have responsibilities. And adulting is not cheap, right? I have kids, I have a husband, they expect me to put food on the table. So I'm not mad at you, when you're like, I have to go get a job. You know? It's just one of those situations. And I feel like you shouldn't even feel shame. People try to shame you when they're like, "I'm a full time entrepreneur." Good for you, boo. But sometimes we have to get there. So I really appreciate all of that. All of that transparency is inspiring, and I know it's going to inspire my listeners too. I want to kind of ask you, you talked about this a little bit, wanting to write the book and get those stories out there. But you know, what was your true motivation? What was the wake up call that told you I don't just need to discover my money story, but I need to share everyone's money story like what was that thing that clicked in you to make that a project?

Eugenie George 22:21

When I first wrote the book, it was called, Not your Average White Guys' Money Book.

Acquania Escarne 22:28

Did you AB test that title and that's why it got kicked out?

Eugenie George 22:31

People thought it was hilarious. People were like, "I'm gonna buy it" Because you know, at heart, I'm still like, humorous. But then I brought a year into writing the book, I brought it to a writers group. And you know, if anybody decides to write a book, romance, whatever they decide, I think it's really important to hear other people that like to write their opinion. And they what they said was, "We love your voice, but it's too breezy. And this topic is too serious." So I had started interviewing people for a while at the time, but then it was like, "Oh, I'm not actually really talking about their, their stories in a way that's compelling. " Like, I wasn't really telling her that was uh compelling. And I think that was like the biggest thing. So I had to go back and then I went to therapy for it and was like, something's missing. What am I what's like, What? How can my questioning isn't correct? And so, what what it took, I had to actually tell people what I'm going to write about. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna okay Asian America." I was like if you're if you identify as Asian American, like you're second third generation born in the United States, What I want to do is I basically want to tell you, I want to, you know, talk about the model minority myth, which was used to make black and brown folks inferior, right? It was a, it was a propaganda piece. And I want you to talk about it, and then I would share some of my story. And I think the biggest thing was, I wrote in the book, and I talked about it, I don't want to ruin it too much, but one of my friends committed suicide. And that was, her story as a whole was really powerful. And she and I were in a money class together. So I was like, wow, I really need to share her. I really need to like, explain how money and mental health are so connected because it's your stability. If you're not, you are not stability. You don't have financial stability, then it's going to mess up all the aspects of your life. Um, so I got this I got I told people the facts of what I was going to talk about. So all the interviewees were more open, and then every interview after that, like every woman cried, so I was like, "Okay, I'm onto something." Then I then four months before writing the book, I had my fiance read it, and he's like, Masters to his master's degree was in English. So I would say he's a lot even though I wrote the book, he's definitely more of the eloquent speaker. And he was like, "You're not telling your truth or whatever." So then that's what I had to go back and think about my friend Michelle's suicide and kind of backtrack, how I was feeling and all my thought process.

Acquania Escarne 25:52

Wow, that is an amazing story and to be able to write through all that and interview women who had, seems like, very powerful money stories of their own and being able to be transparent with you about that is amazing. And as the teller of their stories, you have a great responsibility. You had to really like-so many people told you, "Make sure you're saying your truth and being transparent and honest in your delivery because you want to be authentic." You want this book to touch people and inspire them to get to the root of their own money story and reading others would definitely help them even jog some memories they probably buried, right? I'm sure some people once you told them how serious and deep you're going to get with this topic. They started to think like "Wait, what is some of the things from my childhood?" You know, did it when people say, "money doesn't grow on trees?" Did that make me adopt a scarcity mindset? Or did I just assume that you have to work for every single dollar and if you don't, you're not able to acquire money or wealth, whereas other families might convince their children passive income iss the way to go. And then they woke up and decided to be an entrepreneur from day one, versus someone who woke up and said, "I have to have a job." You know, there's so many ways in which our parents really influenced the way we think about money, the way we handle money, you know, the way we have a relationship or not a relationship with money, because some people can be very flippant about money, and others can be so attached to it that, like you said, it causes stress and anxiety because it's intertwined with their mental health. And they don't always realize that so I even commend you for going to therapy to talk through that. And to really understand, what does this mean? What does all of this mean? And how is it impacting even my ability to ask other people questions about money? You know, like being able to recognize that so you could change your questions because it's really about the question. The answer you get is determined based on the question you asked and you went deeper. So I really am excited to share this podcast and your book with my listeners. Because I feel like it's going to be an eye opener for those who read it. It's going to really cause you to look within, you know, and really have a sense of what's your own money story and challenge yourself on that too. And how are you potentially teaching your kids and your family and your fiance and your anyone in your life about money because of the way that you're handling it? You're processing it. So that's like, really dope. So the name of the podcast is called The Purpose of Money Podcast. And I ask all my listeners this question, what is your purpose for money?

Eugenie George 28:38

Well, my purpose of money is always based off of my core values. So I always say my core values is curiosity, humor and humility. So the way money the way money creates a tool is when money my purpose of money is when I'm able to use the money to express my values, then I feel financially stable.

Acquania Escarne 29:07

I like that. And that's really important. I like the way you started out with your values, because most people don't realize how they spend money is normally determined by their own values, even if they're not consciously aware of it. So it's good that your purpose is tied to your values. That means you're really in tune with yourself. And maybe your book helps you get to that point. Would you agree?

Eugenie George 29:26

Yes, I also used to be a financial wellness teacher. So I would go in, while I was in grad school, like all the many things I was doing, while I was in grad school, I would go to corporations and give talks and we kept saying every group of people that I would teach the money class to. I was like "We're missing something because people aren't attaching their their money to what they feel." So then we came like decided that value based spending is how you get it. So that was like a year of research.

Acquania Escarne 30:05

I just want to say I think you got way more out of your graduate degree than I got out of mine. You utilized the library, you took advantage of pitching what you were doing to corporate organizations so that you can fine tune your message and your purpose. So kudos to you. You might be $60,000 in debt, but you are 100% in return in my book. Your RI on your graduate degree, it keeps on going. I wish you the best with your book sales, with your podcasts, and with everything you do. I am so excited that you took time to talk to me and my listeners today on The Purpose of Money Podcast. Guys, if you liked this episode, I encourage you to share it with friends and family. Check it out on all podcast listening platforms. But before we depart, Eugenie, tell my listeners Where can we find you? How can we connect with you?

Eugenie George 30:59

Yeah! It's _EugenieGeorge. Just make sure you put that down, because my name is complicated too, uh, so I'm always on Twitter always ranting. Um, so that's been great. And I'm on Instagram. So those are kind of like the two places. And if you want to get real professional, I am pretty talkative on LinkedIn too. But that one's more about like just spewing out facts and statistics,you know?

Acquania Escarne 31:29

Hey, some people need to hear that facts, statistics, rants, I'm here for it. I follow you on Twitter and Instagram and I love the conversations you start. So guys, follow her on Instagram and Twitter, check out the show notes for all the links. So you can be involved in the money conversation and make sure to use Equal Pay Day or any day to promote the importance of building wealth by women of color. And thanks, guys! Until next time, keep building generational wealth.

Thank you you for listening to The Purpose of Money Podcast. For more resources and information, check out my website thepurposeofmoney.com. And while you're there, please sign up for our newsletter so you have the latest information on new episodes and blog posts. Until next time, keep creating freedom in your life today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai